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3239 discussions

RE: PHP versus ASP.NET WAS: Test Hosting Recommendation
by Charles, Joshua Micah (UMKC-Student) 16 Feb '05

16 Feb '05

>>|Well, with ASP and PHP, you can generate all the HTML manually, so you >>can control how closely to >Can is the operative word here. How many actually do? My point was that this is a developer issue, not a language issue. >| The biggest advantage ASP.NET has over classic ASP and PHP is the ideas of Code-Behind, where you >| have a clean separation of your code and the presentation code. You have to do quite a bit to >| approach this in PHP or ASP. Also, managed post backs / page states are quite nice. >The question we should be asking here is why is this necessary? >I'm not an advanced PHP coder (something I hope to fix soon) so I really >can't speak to >how easy it would be to do. The biggest advantage I've seen is in maintenance. These make your program a lot easier and cleaner to maintain. >Well I guess that depends on what you think a webscripting language should >do. True. For extremely small projects, I would say that php is just fine. Larger projects require something more, I think. >How do you figure the .Net debugger is cheaper than the PHP debugger? I >don't use a PHP debugger, >at least not yet. So I'm completely ignorant of costs. But if there is a >cost difference, it is >most likely only there so Microsoft can kill off all competition to .Net so >they can start >charging through the nose for the .Net debugger. Typical M$ attack pattern >(ref: Sun Tzu's Art of War :: Microsoft Press). I was comparing Visual C# Standard ($109 US) to the Zend Studio ($249 US). Both include debuggers. Although, technically, The Zend Studio debugger has problems because it can't connect to the database backend. >Overloading functions is taken from c/c++. Something that could be done >most likely with java code. My point was that you can do this using ASP.NET / C# and you can't in PHP. Not sure about PHP 5 though. Overloading Constructors can be very helpful sometimes. C# also has cool things like delegates, templates / generics (in version 2.0) and a larger framework that is easily extensible. It's been my experience that php doesn't scale up to larger projects very well when compared to .Net/C#. It quickly becomes an organizational nightmare. With C# and .NET(which includes mono), it is very easy to compartmentalize your code any number of ways. For example, put you entire data access layer in one assembly( shared library), you business objects into another, security and permissions in another, etc. etc. You can use a different namespace for each one to make your code more readable. And namespaces can be shared across assemblies.

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Re: Test Hosting Recommendation
by Brian Kelsay 16 Feb '05

16 Feb '05

Of course! The Abacus was probably around during Sun Tzu's time. For the low, low price of $19.95 I can sell you the Sucaba computer. It runs off of kinetic energy and is self-charging. It is environmentally friendly and will not put nasty lead back into the environment when it is recycled. It's user viewing interface is easy on the eyes and the keyboard is designed to reduce RSI. It's lighter than the average laptop and more durable. Compute like the ancients, get a Sucaba today!! Brian Kelsay >>> Gerald Combs <> 02/16/05 01:25PM >>> Jason Clinton wrote: > On Wednesday 16 February 2005 10:49, Brian Densmore wrote: > >>Tzu's Art of War :: Microsoft Press). Overloading functions is taken from >>c/c++. Something that could be done most likely with java code. > > > Actually I believe it comes from LISP or possibly Smalltalk or its predecessor > Simula. Next you'll be telling us that there were personal computers before the IBM PC. Sheesh.

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RE: Test Hosting Recommendation
by Brian Densmore 16 Feb '05

16 Feb '05

|-----Original Message----- |From: Charles, Joshua Micah (UMKC-Student) [mailto:[email protected]] |Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 9:57 AM |To: Brian Densmore; kclug(a)kclug.org |Subject: RE: Test Hosting Recommendation | | |Well, with ASP and PHP, you can generate all the HTML manually, so you can control how closely to Can is the operative word here. How many actually do? | | Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the cross browser experience pretty good for XHTML (Strict) | pages? Don't know, haven't tested it. | | The biggest advantage ASP.NET has over classic ASP and PHP is the ideas of Code-Behind, where you | have a clean separation of your code and the presentation code. You have to do quite a bit to | approach this in PHP or ASP. Also, managed post backs / page states are quite nice. The question we should be asking here is why is this necessary? I'm not an advanced PHP coder (something I hope to fix soon) so I really can't speak to how easy it would be to do. | I'm working on a PHP project after spending most of my time recently on ASP.NET, and while I used | to think PHP was great, after working with C# and the .Net framework, PHP looks rather primitive. Well I guess that depends on what you think a webscripting language should do. | Not being able to overload functions, or having strongly typed variables, or any number of other | things has been a pain. Not to mention that the Debugger for the .Net framework is a lot better | than the debugger available for PHP (and cheaper, I think). How do you figure the .Net debugger is cheaper than the PHP debugger? I don't use a PHP debugger, at least not yet. So I'm completely ignorant of costs. But if there is a cost difference, it is most likely only there so Microsoft can kill off all competition to .Net so they can start charging through the nose for the .Net debugger. Typical M$ attack pattern (ref: Sun Tzu's Art of War :: Microsoft Press). Overloading functions is taken from c/c++. Something that could be done most likely with java code. | When it comes to the speed differences on your machine between Firefox and explorer - that is | something I've never understood. This is not related to the server at all, right? It's a | rendering engine issue, right? The server serves up the pages at the same speed no matter what, | right? Like I said, I'm not sure, and I've always wondered about this issue. Microsoft would like you to believe this. No it doesn't have anything to do with the server. It has to do with code coming from the server based on browser information reported from the client. In other words, the server creates *different* pages based on the browser. The IE browsers get extra code/data so that some functions run locally on the client machine. Whereas, all other browsers have to retrieve that information from the server, in a separate request. Hence slower performance.

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RE: Test Hosting Recommendation
by Charles, Joshua Micah (UMKC-Student) 16 Feb '05

16 Feb '05

Well, with ASP and PHP, you can generate all the HTML manually, so you can control how closely to standards the HTML sticks, and which standards you will stick to (xhtml, html, etc.). Unfortunately, ASP.NET does not generate strict XHTML, though there are aftermarket solutions to fix this. I've not tried this personally, however. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the cross browser experience pretty good for XHTML (Strict) pages? The biggest advantage ASP.NET has over classic ASP and PHP is the ideas of Code-Behind, where you have a clean separation of your code and the presentation code. You have to do quite a bit to approach this in PHP or ASP. Also, managed post backs / page states are quite nice. I'm working on a PHP project after spending most of my time recently on ASP.NET, and while I used to think PHP was great, after working with C# and the .Net framework, PHP looks rather primitive. Not being able to overload functions, or having strongly typed variables, or any number of other things has been a pain. Not to mention that the Debugger for the .Net framework is a lot better than the debugger available for PHP (and cheaper, I think). When it comes to the speed differences on your machine between Firefox and explorer - that is something I've never understood. This is not related to the server at all, right? It's a rendering engine issue, right? The server serves up the pages at the same speed no matter what, right? Like I said, I'm not sure, and I've always wondered about this issue. Josh ________________________________ From: kclug-bounces(a)kclug.org [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Brian Densmore Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 9:33 AM To: kclug(a)kclug.org Subject: RE: Test Hosting Recommendation Ok. So how good are the pages on cross-browsers? I've seen a number of issues with .net web pages rendering very differently on Explorer and Opera or Firefox/Mozilla. I've also noticed some major speed differences between Explorer and Firefox running on the same machine. I have no problem supporting ASP as a server side page generator, as long as it is usable by all browsers equally. For this reason I use PHP for now. -----Original Message----- From: Charles, Joshua Micah (UMKC-Student) [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 9:16 AM To: kclug(a)kclug.org Subject: Test Hosting Reccomendation Hello All. This post is concerning ASP.NET hosting on Linux. There is a service out there: http://www.monoforge.com/ I have a simple application running on my space. Here is an example of the power of this setup. I developed my solution on Windows XP using Visual Studio 2003 .NET. I compiled it on windows using the Microsoft .NET C# compiler. Then I simply copied my files over using an FTP client and it ran, on Linux, without recompilation. It has a MySQL backend. When I first uploaded my app, the MySQL connector was not installed on the server machine. So I simply copied the dll into the execution directory ( bin/ ) and my custom app found it and used it automatically - problem solved. The hosting is free for the moment, because this is currently a beta test. Once it goes live, beta testers will get some money off the final product. If nothing else, this is great for experimenting with. Have fun! Josh

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RE: VOIP experiences
by Brian Kelsay 16 Feb '05

16 Feb '05

That cost sounds about like the average when I looked into it, but I couldn't convince the significant other to try a new technology. It's easier when it is just me that is affected. There are Linux alternatives to the QOS router. I hate to beat a dead penguin, but I think IPCop or one of the other firewalls can do this if you already have one in place. Basically you are giving priority to the voice packets so you don't get noticeable gaps in your conversation. Kind of like having static on the phone line or watching a digital cable movie and the signal starts to drop out, screen goes blank for a second or you get blocks on the screen. Also used for realtime video streaming. Look for a QOS packet scheduler option on your firewall. I recall that you assign the priority to a port or a range of them and the internal IP of the phone. Might be something like "altq" or "frottle" (Freenet Throttle). >From Distrowatch: Linux LiveCD Router 1.9.4 A new version of Linux LiveCD Router has been released. From the changelog: "Version 1.9.4 Jun 2004. Added Frottle (Freenet Throttle) Packet Scheduling and QoS for Wireless Networks and Mesh WiFi at /opt/frottle; new default config for MRTG graphical network statistics; updated documentation." For IPCop, there is a add-in here: http://ipcop-pro.dyndns.org/download.php?view.72 Brian Kelsay >>> "Daniel Siemens" <> 02/15/05 07:16PM >>> <snip> Setup cost was like $40.00 for a "router with QOS". If you sign up, say I refereed you, I think I think we each get a free month. Number to use is 816 875 4282 if you do.

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New KCLUG harddrive fund update
by Chris Bier 16 Feb '05

16 Feb '05

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Thanks for last night's donations to the new hard drive fund! So far, we have $171. FAQ: ~ Q: How much money do you need? ~ A: How much do you have? (or enough to get a quality SATA controller (ideally $320) and two drives ($60 each) + S&H $10 = $450) ~ Q: How long do I have to donate? ~ A: We won't buy anything for a month or so to give everyone a chance donate. ~ Q: Who can I send a check to? ~ A: Bill Cavilieri ~ 1223 NE 102nd Ct ~ Kansas City, MO 64155 ~ Please put KCLUG in the Memo. ~ Q: The real question is: How does this relate to the cost of tea in China? ~ A: Well, there are several ways to calculate that, for example the standard equation: KCLUG*0=delta T, but if we look at the question using chaos theory, then it's probable that we've dressed up their leader in a clown suit, and they're all wearing two left shoes. Thanks, Chris - -- I digitally sign my emails. If you see an attachment with .asc, then that means your email client doesn't support PGP digital signatures. http://www.gnupg.org/(en)/documentation/faqs.html#q1.1 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFCE26CE5xXU3JS1mQRAj3XAKCRRx68eJB6F33KuWVhTeF7ILGCHACdFMAp 9CgbAOl5XfxeHdpGCr8IETs= =yP/o -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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RE: Test Hosting Recommendation
by Brian Densmore 16 Feb '05

16 Feb '05

Ok. So how good are the pages on cross-browsers? I've seen a number of issues with .net web pages rendering very differently on Explorer and Opera or Firefox/Mozilla. I've also noticed some major speed differences between Explorer and Firefox running on the same machine. I have no problem supporting ASP as a server side page generator, as long as it is usable by all browsers equally. For this reason I use PHP for now. -----Original Message----- From: Charles, Joshua Micah (UMKC-Student) [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 9:16 AM To: kclug(a)kclug.org Subject: Test Hosting Reccomendation Hello All. This post is concerning ASP.NET hosting on Linux. There is a service out there: http://www.monoforge.com/ I have a simple application running on my space. Here is an example of the power of this setup. I developed my solution on Windows XP using Visual Studio 2003 .NET. I compiled it on windows using the Microsoft .NET C# compiler. Then I simply copied my files over using an FTP client and it ran, on Linux, without recompilation. It has a MySQL backend. When I first uploaded my app, the MySQL connector was not installed on the server machine. So I simply copied the dll into the execution directory ( bin/ ) and my custom app found it and used it automatically - problem solved. The hosting is free for the moment, because this is currently a beta test. Once it goes live, beta testers will get some money off the final product. If nothing else, this is great for experimenting with. Have fun! Josh

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Test Hosting Reccomendation
by Charles, Joshua Micah (UMKC-Student) 16 Feb '05

16 Feb '05

Hello All. This post is concerning ASP.NET hosting on Linux. There is a service out there: http://www.monoforge.com/ I have a simple application running on my space. Here is an example of the power of this setup. I developed my solution on Windows XP using Visual Studio 2003 .NET. I compiled it on windows using the Microsoft .NET C# compiler. Then I simply copied my files over using an FTP client and it ran, on Linux, without recompilation. It has a MySQL backend. When I first uploaded my app, the MySQL connector was not installed on the server machine. So I simply copied the dll into the execution directory ( bin/ ) and my custom app found it and used it automatically - problem solved. The hosting is free for the moment, because this is currently a beta test. Once it goes live, beta testers will get some money off the final product. If nothing else, this is great for experimenting with. Have fun! Josh

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RE: Server Crashing Question
by Charles, Joshua Micah (UMKC-Student) 16 Feb '05

16 Feb '05

>What is the hardware of the server, when and how frequently are the >Crashes? What happens when it crashes...kernel panic, just locks up and >logging stops? What OS is running on the server? How much traffic are >we talking about? Any idea on number of hits? Is there an increase in >hits right before the crash? I will be getting some of this information shortly. I can tell you that the server is running Redhat Enterprise Linux, the latest version, but I have no idea as to the rest. I don't mess around with the machine. I merely ftp my code onto the server from my development machines. Thanks, Josh

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Linux on the Mac Mini
by Jim Herrmann 16 Feb '05

16 Feb '05

http://www.apple.com/macmini/ http://www.sowerbutts.com/linux-mac-mini/ http://www.sowerbutts.com/linux-mac-mini/block.gif http://www.sowerbutts.com/linux-mac-mini/guide.pdf -- Progressive Values ARE American Values Responsibility, Empathy, Freedom, Opportunity, Prosperity, Fairness, Trust, Honesty, Open Communication, Community, Cooperation http://musicalprogress.org/

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