I've got a PIII-1Ghz system which I'd like to use until it dies. Right now it works fine, except that the rear PS/2 ports seem not to work. This is a recent development, as the computer worked fine with a PS/2 keyboard and mouse up until I moved it from the basement office into the living room (I just acquired a used TV with a VGA port on the back).
I'm using it right now to type this message because when the motherboard gets past the point where I can use CMOS Setup (pressing Del), the motherboard recognizes a USB keyboard and USB mouse even before an OS loads.
Pressing DEL to get into the onboard CMOS Setup utility does work from the USB keyboard. However, the onboard CMOS setup utility apparently only recognizes a PS/2 keyboard and not a USB keyboard, because once inside the CMOS utility the keyboard keys don't function. The only way out of the CMOS Setup screen is the power button on the computer.
In Ye Olden Days of PC/MS/DRDOS, there were CMOS Setup Utilities which could be run from special boot disks. If such an application still exists, and works for modern CMOSes/BIOSes, I suspect that it is the only way I'm going to be able to change the system time on this computer, or more to the point tell the motherboard BIOS that the Legacy Keyboard option is disabled.
Such a Catch-22: because the PS/2 keyboard doesn't work, I can't tell the BIOS that the PS/2 keyboard doesn't work, so that it should accept a USB keyboard when editing CMOS so I can tell it that the PS/2 keyboard doesn't work.
This is really frustrating because I know every other component on the system works. I've successfully installed Ubuntu Linux 7.10 without a hitch on this same PC. I just want to make some basic changes to the CMOS/BIOS, but I can't until I figure out how to get into CMOS Setup without a PS/2 keyboard.
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I doubt the CMOS data is laid out in any sort of a standard fashon, but...
You can set the system time from any OS. With Linux, this is: hwclock --systohc # set hardware clock to the current system time
It would be stupid for the motherboard to default to lacking USB keyboard support, so it might be worthwhile to use the CMOS reset jumper.
--- Luke -Jr [email protected] wrote:
It would be stupid for the motherboard to default to lacking USB keyboard support, so it might be worthwhile to use the CMOS reset jumper.
The motherboard does, however, default to the crappy onboard video (with an astounding 4MB of video ram) when the CMOS is reset, and must be told manually that another form of video is present. Prior experience with this motherboard in both Windows and Linux has shown that unless you turn off the onboard video RAM, the OS used tends to believe the motherboard's lies that the onboard video (when enabled in CMOS) is the only video present.
Believe me, if the money existed to simply replace the motherboard, I'd be more likely to go in with a soldering iron or just buy a replacement.
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On Monday 31 March 2008, Leo Mauler wrote:
--- Luke -Jr [email protected] wrote:
It would be stupid for the motherboard to default to lacking USB keyboard support, so it might be worthwhile to use the CMOS reset jumper.
The motherboard does, however, default to the crappy onboard video (with an astounding 4MB of video ram) when the CMOS is reset, and must be told manually that another form of video is present.
Yes, but once the BIOS has USB support enabled, you can use the USB keyboard to go in there and change other settings. ;)
--- Luke -Jr [email protected] wrote:
On Monday 31 March 2008, Leo Mauler wrote:
--- Luke -Jr [email protected] wrote:
It would be stupid for the motherboard to default to lacking USB keyboard support, so it might be worthwhile to use the CMOS reset jumper.
The motherboard does, however, default to the crappy onboard video (with an astounding 4MB of video ram) when the CMOS is reset, and must be told manually that another form of video is present.
Yes, but once the BIOS has USB support enabled, you can use the USB keyboard to go in there and change other settings. ;)
True, but in the event that the computer engineers assumed a PS/2 keyboard was the default for CMOS, I'd much rather figure out how to save and restore the CMOS first, rather than reset the CMOS and be left with a system which can't be used to show off Beryl/Compiz on a widescreen DLP projection screen TV... :(
The AGP card is a nVidia Geforce 6200 with 128MB VRAM, which through the use of those evil proprietary drivers allows nifty Beryl/Compiz demonstrations. I have *never* heard of someone getting Beryl/Compiz to work on a nVidia RIVA TNT2 video chipset with 4MB VRAM, otherwise known as the "onboard video".
Ubuntu has even gone beyond the TV manual and doesn't limit itself to the 1024x768 stated in the TV manual as "maximum PC graphics resolution", but rather expands itself out to a very nice widescreen 1280x720 (Windows XP, however, does limit itself to 1024x768 on this TV). I really don't want to lose that over the next few months while I can't afford to just buy a completely-functional PC.
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On Mon, March 31, 2008 09:09, Leo Mauler wrote:
In Ye Olden Days of PC/MS/DRDOS, there were CMOS Setup Utilities which could be run from special boot disks. If such an application still exists, and works for modern CMOSes/BIOSes, I suspect that it is the only way I'm going to be able to change the system time on this computer, or more to the point tell the motherboard BIOS that the Legacy Keyboard option is disabled.
What there were were Motherboards who's CMOS lacked a built-in interface and required a regular disk-based program to change settings. Those programs are highly BIOS-specific and not at all general utilities.
Since Linux is able to read and write to the BIOS address range, sure, you can do it. The problem is knowing which portion of the address range means what - and without the interface program that lives in the BIOS, you're pretty much clueless about that.
The USB interface pre-dates USB "Human Interface Devices" (HID), which is why you'll see something like "support for legacy devices" in the BIOS config - which may or may not give you USB keyboard access to the BIOS.
Given that your motherboard is worth probably somewhere between $0 - $10, why not try to repair that PS/2 connector? Or just find a similar-spec board that will use your CPU and RAM.
The particulars of which bit stands for what can change from motherboard to motherboard, and even between bios revisions.
If you know two systems have the same bios revision, on the same motherboard, you can (in theory) copy one's bios settings to another by copying /dev/nvram to a file on the source machine, and copying it back to /dev/nvram on the destination. In practice, don't do that unless you're ok with the potability of bricking the destination system. /dev/nvram is a binary file representing the data in the cmos.
[bcrook@bcrook ~]$sudo od -c /dev/nvram 0000000 \0 \0 \0 354 \0 \0 \v 200 002 300 377 / / 247 254 222 0000020 \0 \0 \0 \0 \0 \0 \0 \0 \0 \0 020 \0 \0 325 J 377 0000040 \a 251 300 377 363 346 337 177 ~ 212 c 277 \a 037 321 0000060 341 023 217 P T } 030 f 021 001 377 035 235 l 256 353 0000100 { 276 210 244 ) 353 324 332 / 004 345 376 372 377 373 277 0000120 366 202 L Q 265 - 275 201 / \0 \0 \0 \0 \0 377 0000140 377 \0 / \0 \0 \0 \0 \0 \0 \0 \0 377 265 027 % \0 0000160 \0 0000162
As you can see, it is quite unintelligible. But you could 'save' your current working nvram today, and 'restore' it next week, after you bork some setting in the BIOS (assuming you can still boot).
On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 10:13 AM, Jonathan Hutchins [email protected] wrote:
On Mon, March 31, 2008 09:09, Leo Mauler wrote:
In Ye Olden Days of PC/MS/DRDOS, there were CMOS Setup Utilities which could be run from special boot disks. If such an application still exists, and works for modern CMOSes/BIOSes, I suspect that it is the only way I'm going to be able to change the system time on this computer, or more to the point tell the motherboard BIOS that the Legacy Keyboard option is disabled.
What there were were Motherboards who's CMOS lacked a built-in interface and required a regular disk-based program to change settings. Those programs are highly BIOS-specific and not at all general utilities.
Since Linux is able to read and write to the BIOS address range, sure, you can do it. The problem is knowing which portion of the address range means what - and without the interface program that lives in the BIOS, you're pretty much clueless about that.
The USB interface pre-dates USB "Human Interface Devices" (HID), which is why you'll see something like "support for legacy devices" in the BIOS config - which may or may not give you USB keyboard access to the BIOS.
Given that your motherboard is worth probably somewhere between $0 - $10, why not try to repair that PS/2 connector? Or just find a similar-spec board that will use your CPU and RAM.
Kclug mailing list [email protected] http://kclug.org/mailman/listinfo/kclug
--- Billy Crook [email protected] wrote:
The particulars of which bit stands for what can change from motherboard to motherboard, and even between bios revisions.
As you can see, it is quite unintelligible. But you could 'save' your current working nvram today, and 'restore' it next week, after you bork some setting in the BIOS (assuming you can still boot).
Yes, I do recall "save/restore CMOS" applications as well. While CMOS Setup utilities are board-specific, are there general-use save/restore CMOS utilities still available?
On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 10:13 AM, Jonathan Hutchins [email protected] wrote:
On Mon, March 31, 2008 09:09, Leo Mauler wrote:
In Ye Olden Days of PC/MS/DRDOS, there were
CMOS Setup
Utilities which could be run from special boot
disks.
If such an application still exists, and works
for
modern CMOSes/BIOSes, I suspect that it is the
only
way I'm going to be able to change the system
time on
this computer, or more to the point tell the motherboard BIOS that the Legacy Keyboard
option is
disabled.
What there were were Motherboards who's CMOS
lacked a built-in interface
and required a regular disk-based program to
change settings. Those
programs are highly BIOS-specific and not at all
general utilities.
Since Linux is able to read and write to the BIOS
address range, sure, you
can do it. The problem is knowing which portion
of the address range
means what - and without the interface program
that lives in the BIOS,
you're pretty much clueless about that.
The USB interface pre-dates USB "Human Interface
Devices" (HID), which is
why you'll see something like "support for legacy
devices" in the BIOS
config - which may or may not give you USB
keyboard access to the BIOS.
Given that your motherboard is worth probably
somewhere between $0 - $10,
why not try to repair that PS/2 connector? Or
just find a similar-spec
board that will use your CPU and RAM.
Kclug mailing list [email protected] http://kclug.org/mailman/listinfo/kclug
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Any reason that you can't just go to Surplus Exchange (or eBay, or Craigslist) and spend $5-10 to get a new motherboard? I'm just wondering if there's some sentimental or practical reason that you'd spend all of this time on a part that's cheaper than a Happy Meal. Heck, brand new motherboards with integrated graphics, ethernet, etc are about $50.
Now, if this is a learning experience, Drive On Linux Soldier. But if not, I'd highly recommend just replacing it, as your time is far too valuable to be wasted. :)
Jeffrey.
On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 9:09 AM, Leo Mauler [email protected] wrote:
I've got a PIII-1Ghz system which I'd like to use until it dies.
--- Jeffrey Watts [email protected] wrote:
Any reason that you can't just go to Surplus Exchange (or eBay, or Craigslist) and spend $5-10 to get a new motherboard?
Not having the $5-$10 to spare is most of it right now. Maybe after I get that "financial stimulus" check from the I.R.S.
Not wanting to waste a whole working PC just because the PS/2 ports are shot is still part of it though. Surplus Exchange won't even consider taking it for free, meaning its going to cost money to get it recycled, and sneaking it into a landfill is just right out.
However, there is still that part of me that says "onboard ports eventually wear out, so *this will happen again*", so I have an interest in seeing if there's a "no-solder" option for recovering from bad onboard motherboard ports.
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On undefined, Leo Mauler [email protected] wrote:
I've got a PIII-1Ghz system which I'd like to use until it dies. Right now it works fine, except that the rear PS/2 ports seem not to work. This is a recent development, as the computer worked fine with a PS/2 keyboard and mouse up until I moved it from the basement office into the living room (I just acquired a used TV with a VGA port on the back).
I'm using it right now to type this message because when the motherboard gets past the point where I can use CMOS Setup (pressing Del), the motherboard recognizes a USB keyboard and USB mouse even before an OS loads.
Pressing DEL to get into the onboard CMOS Setup utility does work from the USB keyboard. However, the onboard CMOS setup utility apparently only recognizes a PS/2 keyboard and not a USB keyboard, because once inside the CMOS utility the keyboard keys don't function. The only way out of the CMOS Setup screen is the power button on the computer.
In Ye Olden Days of PC/MS/DRDOS, there were CMOS Setup Utilities which could be run from special boot disks. If such an application still exists, and works for modern CMOSes/BIOSes, I suspect that it is the only way I'm going to be able to change the system time on this computer, or more to the point tell the motherboard BIOS that the Legacy Keyboard option is disabled.
Such a Catch-22: because the PS/2 keyboard doesn't work, I can't tell the BIOS that the PS/2 keyboard doesn't work, so that it should accept a USB keyboard when editing CMOS so I can tell it that the PS/2 keyboard doesn't work.
This is really frustrating because I know every other component on the system works. I've successfully installed Ubuntu Linux 7.10 without a hitch on this same PC. I just want to make some basic changes to the CMOS/BIOS, but I can't until I figure out how to get into CMOS Setup without a PS/2 keyboard.
What about setting up a serial console? You would need another machine, but this would work. Just an idea, I haven't read all the way through the email nor replies.
Jonathan
On Mon, March 31, 2008 16:59, djgoku wrote:
What about setting up a serial console? You would need another machine, but this would work. Just an idea, I haven't read all the way through the email nor replies.
BIOS-level serial console requires hardware. Someone was developing a card a few years back, but they were several hundred dollars. Software serial console doesn't kick in until the kernel loads.
BIOS serial console access is typically only a feature on server class motherboard, or provided through "IPMI" cards, which can cost from $100 to $400, and typically fit into a SODIMM slot that has to be on the motherboard to begin with. Software serial console can be enabled for GRUB, which is technically before the kernel, but it only starts in grub stage 2, and chances are that you won't get that far if you have a problem serious enough to need access outside of SSH.
You can find pci cards for under $200 on ebay that allow remote KVM over http usually with the aid of a java applet. The PCI card that I have and have used for this purpose is made by AMI, the BIOS company.
On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 5:36 PM, Jonathan Hutchins [email protected] wrote:
On Mon, March 31, 2008 16:59, djgoku wrote:
What about setting up a serial console? You would need another machine, but this would work. Just an idea, I haven't read all the way through the email nor replies.
BIOS-level serial console requires hardware. Someone was developing a card a few years back, but they were several hundred dollars. Software serial console doesn't kick in until the kernel loads.
Kclug mailing list [email protected] http://kclug.org/mailman/listinfo/kclug
On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 9:09 AM, Leo Mauler [email protected] wrote:
I've got a PIII-1Ghz system which I'd like to use until it dies. Right now it works fine, except that
What mobo/system is it? There stands a decent chance that a LUGger might have a spare board you could beg. I know I've got several P3 systems that have been collecting dust. Also, in normal troubleshooting methods: have you tried a spare keyboard?
Jon.
--- Jon Pruente [email protected] wrote:
On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 9:09 AM, Leo Mauler [email protected] wrote:
I've got a PIII-1Ghz system which I'd like to use until it dies. Right now it works fine, except that
What mobo/system is it? There stands a decent chance that a LUGger might have a spare board you could beg.
It's a Gateway system with a proprietary power supply and a weirdo case. I don't know if other motherboards will fit in this case.
I know I've got several P3 systems that have been collecting dust.
Well I wouldn't mind taking one off your hands, though the main reason I'm still trying to get this one working is that I have no disposable income whatsoever.
Also, in normal troubleshooting methods: have you tried a spare keyboard?
Three PS/2 motherboards so far. All of them work great on the nearly-new Intel 2.4Ghz system in the basement, just not for more than a minute on the PIII and not at all in CMOS Setup.
Right now I can get an OS to install and use the AGP video card because the system was previously working for awhile using the AGP card. It was working as a part of a switchbox, I've tried plugging it back into the switch box and I'm getting the new error still.
I have one of those USB adapter thingys which lets you plug a PS/2 mouse and keyboard into a USB port. The PS/2 mouse doesn't work at all, either in the regular PS/2 port or in the USB thingy, but a PS/2 keyboard works in the USB thingy, and I have a USB mouse which works fine as well.
Since I have a keyboard and mouse which work for a conventional OS (just not the BIOS), I can install Ubuntu on the system, just without the ability to tweak the CMOS.
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On Tue, Apr 1, 2008 at 9:35 AM, Leo Mauler [email protected] wrote:
It's a Gateway system with a proprietary power supply and a weirdo case. I don't know if other motherboards will fit in this case.
I've got a couple Gateways around, mostly towers. There is one that I had installed at a friends house (since upgraded to the Athlon XP I picked up via this list) that I think has stock Intel on board video. I don't recall if it works with the Intel drivers, as I've only run it with the nVidia card (either a TNT 2 or a GF2MX) in the AGP slot. Getting Compiz on 4MB is nifty. I know I've had it before on a TNT 2, but I think it was either 8 or 16MB.
Jon.
-
Billy Crook -
David Nicol -
djgoku -
Jeffrey Watts -
Jon Pruente -
Jonathan Hutchins -
Leo Mauler -
Luke -Jr