Can anyone recommend a program or method of stress testing hard drives? I check memory/cpu with memtest86, but I would like some way to stress test a hard drive. Currently I dd urandom over it for a few days or DBAN it, but I'm looking for something more thought out. Preferably, a program that can run on a live system so I'd just attach the drive to be tested, and point the test at /dev/sdd or whatever dev it was on. Preserving data on the drive is (obviously) not a concern.
I stress tested a drive once by throwing it off a tall building. It failed.
Billy Crook [email protected] wrote: Can anyone recommend a program or method of stress testing hard drives? I check memory/cpu with memtest86, but I would like some way to stress test a hard drive. Currently I dd urandom over it for a few days or DBAN it, but I'm looking for something more thought out. Preferably, a program that can run on a live system so I'd just attach the drive to be tested, and point the test at /dev/sdd or whatever dev it was on. Preserving data on the drive is (obviously) not a concern.
I think the only thing that stress testing a drive would do would be to move it closer to it's failure point. Either that will be early, in which case it might possibly happen while testing, not quite as early, in which case it will happen just after installation instead of a week after installation, or it will be later in the drive's life - in which case it will just happen a bit sooner than it would have.
About the only use I can see for this would bet to stress test a few examples of a certain model of a drive to failure, and see what the MTBF is.
There are also environmental factors to consider. Testing the drive in an open, bench-configured computer really doesn't give you any information about how it will perform in a closed case sandwiched between two other hot drives. This is one reason that some manufacturer's well intentioned MTBF estimates are inaccurate.
Frankly, throwing it off a high building seems just as informative.
If you can write a pattern to the drive and it passes fsck, and you can repeat this two or three times, that is going to be about as good a test as you can usefully perform. A drive that will function that well is an unpredictable distance from failure.
There's nothing quite as reassuring as uncertainty.
On 6/26/07, Jonathan Hutchins [email protected] wrote:
I think the only thing that stress testing a drive would do would be to move it closer to it's failure point. Either that will be early, in which case it might possibly happen while testing, not quite as early, in which case it will happen just after installation instead of a week after installation, or it will be later in the drive's life - in which case it will just happen a bit sooner than it would have.
About the only use I can see for this would bet to stress test a few examples of a certain model of a drive to failure, and see what the MTBF is.
There are also environmental factors to consider. Testing the drive in an open, bench-configured computer really doesn't give you any information about how it will perform in a closed case sandwiched between two other hot drives. This is one reason that some manufacturer's well intentioned MTBF estimates are inaccurate.
Frankly, throwing it off a high building seems just as informative.
If you can write a pattern to the drive and it passes fsck, and you can repeat this two or three times, that is going to be about as good a test as you can usefully perform. A drive that will function that well is an unpredictable distance from failure. _______________________________________________ Kclug mailing list [email protected] http://kclug.org/mailman/listinfo/kclug
On Jun 26, 2007, at 11:27 AM, Jonathan Hutchins wrote:
I think the only thing that stress testing a drive would do would be to move it closer to it's failure point. Either that will be early, in which case it might possibly happen while testing, not quite as early, in which case it will happen just after installation instead of a week after installation, or it will be later in the drive's life - in which case it will just happen a bit sooner than it would have.
About the only use I can see for this would bet to stress test a few examples of a certain model of a drive to failure, and see what the MTBF is.
There are also environmental factors to consider. Testing the drive in an open, bench-configured computer really doesn't give you any information about how it will perform in a closed case sandwiched between two other hot drives. This is one reason that some manufacturer's well intentioned MTBF estimates are inaccurate.
Frankly, throwing it off a high building seems just as informative.
If you can write a pattern to the drive and it passes fsck, and you can repeat this two or three times, that is going to be about as good a test as you can usefully perform. A drive that will function that well is an unpredictable distance from failure. _______________________________________________ Kclug mailing list [email protected] http://kclug.org/mailman/listinfo/kclug
Each manufacturer provides datasheets for the drive which describes everything required for the user to know while installing the drive. You get spaces required, airflow requirements, etc. If you don't meet these, your drive will either last longer or less than the MTBF. If you think your drive won't last for more than five years, have drives to replace it!
Do not buy cheap power supplies and do not go outside of the datasheet requirements for airflow and space around the drive. You better go for an uninterruptible power supply as well. That'll help your whole system.
Manufacturers provide programs to perform tests with the drive. SMART is an okay technology to help warn of future failures. Did you have a bad experience with drives failing quite often?
Sincerely,
William Harrington
On 6/26/07, Billy Crook [email protected] wrote:
Can anyone recommend a program or method of stress testing hard drives? I check memory/cpu with memtest86, but I would like some way to stress test a hard drive. Currently I dd urandom over it for a few days or DBAN it, but I'm looking for something more thought out. Preferably, a program that can run on a live system so I'd just attach the drive to be tested, and point the test at /dev/sdd or whatever dev it was on. Preserving data on the drive is (obviously) not a concern.
While not all about stress testing the drive,I may have a stress reducer for many of us
In several POS arenas we use a hardware mirror controller called "Duplidisk"
The best article explanation of the device is here:
http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=11807
Do take note that Duplidisk is totally OS and application agnostic for it's IDE device role.
Of a 2005 project run involving some 2900 of these there were maybe 3 failures on systems relying on the Dupli, and 1 of those was my being given an incorrect firmware update- which was recoverable from. The other 2? one was in a lab confirming my firmware bug, and the third was "pepsi syndrome-sadly dupli is not pepsi proof. But as a real world dragonslayer it just plain works!
Oren Beck
"If you think some trick devices are too expensive consider the cost of _not_ having used them"
Billy,
You may find something of interest here.
http://www.ultimatebootcd.com/
This project is a live CD with a collection of free and open-source diagnostic utilities used for a number of PC diagnostic, data recovery, file system repair, disk wiping, etc. The website provides links back to those sources and you may find a specific stress test utility for the specific manufacturer of the hard drives you wish to stress test. I hope this helps.
Best Wishes,
Jeffrey A. McCright, A+ 816-210-3107 [email protected]
From: "Billy Crook" [email protected] To: KCLUG [email protected] Subject: Stress Testing Hard Drives Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 10:08:56 -0500
Can anyone recommend a program or method of stress testing hard drives? I check memory/cpu with memtest86, but I would like some way to stress test a hard drive. Currently I dd urandom over it for a few days or DBAN it, but I'm looking for something more thought out. Preferably, a program that can run on a live system so I'd just attach the drive to be tested, and point the test at /dev/sdd or whatever dev it was on. Preserving data on the drive is (obviously) not a concern.
Kclug mailing list [email protected] http://kclug.org/mailman/listinfo/kclug
_________________________________________________________________ Hotmail to go? Get your Hotmail, news, sports and much more! http://mobile.msn.com
OK, I am going to take a leap here, but I believe Billy is looking for a simple utility to be run from an existing computer system that can be employed to test used and possibly new drives to verify that the drive does not have bad spots in the media and can still be used reliably with a certain amount of confidence and NOT to run a hard drive to death to verify that drives Mean Time Between Failures value.
I am also assuming that Billy isn't directly interested in what environmental conditions will reduce or extend a disk drives life span including (while cute) dropping a drive off a tall building.
Based on the original e-mail, I further assume that Billy is looking for a direct answer such as the name of an utility or a link to an utility that performs a stress test on hard drives and not a dissertation on hard drive technology, hard drive manufacturing Quality Assurance processes, best practice hard drive environmental conditions, nor the self perceived importance of KCLUG member's peripherals knowledge base. In short, I believe Billy is asking for quick, honest, and accurate help in locating diagnostic software for his particular situation.
Ladies and Gentlemen, TAKE A HINT! This is why newbies don't look long to the KCLUG for support, and quite possibly one of the reasons why people don't give Linux a second look. I have several friends whom I have directed to the KCLUG and after posting one or two questions to the list, have given up on the list. I no longer point non-technical people to the list as they get frustrated and offended. There it is.
Let the Flames begin!
Jeffrey A. McCright, A+ 816-210-3107 [email protected]
From: "Billy Crook" [email protected] To: KCLUG [email protected] Subject: Stress Testing Hard Drives Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 10:08:56 -0500
Can anyone recommend a program or method of stress testing hard drives? I check memory/cpu with memtest86, but I would like some way to stress test a hard drive. Currently I dd urandom over it for a few days or DBAN it, but I'm looking for something more thought out. Preferably, a program that can run on a live system so I'd just attach the drive to be tested, and point the test at /dev/sdd or whatever dev it was on. Preserving data on the drive is (obviously) not a concern.
Kclug mailing list [email protected] http://kclug.org/mailman/listinfo/kclug
_________________________________________________________________ Make every IM count. Download Messenger and join the im Initiative now. Its free. http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=TAGHM_June07
On Sunday 01 July 2007 11:50:36 pm Jeffrey McCright wrote:
Ladies and Gentlemen, TAKE A HINT! This is why newbies don't look long to the KCLUG for support, and quite possibly one of the reasons why people don't give Linux a second look. I have several friends whom I have directed to the KCLUG and after posting one or two questions to the list, have given up on the list. I no longer point non-technical people to the list as they get frustrated and offended. There it is.
Well, while this is one of the finest collections of technical minds generally accessible, it's also home to a few folks who base their answers entirely on wild speculation and personal theories rather than actual knowledge and experience. I would think that would tend to discourage them as well.
Sometimes, when someone asks how to do something, it's a good idea to ask them why they want to do that, and to discuss some of the possible implications of doing it. Yes, shooting yourself in the foot will probably get you out of jury duty. Yes, I could respect your choice of action and merely tell you how, but perhaps I could explore other alternatives instead.
The KCLUG mailing list is a discussion list for members of the LUG. We are under no obligation to assist technofeebs, or even to promote Linux. If some of us choose to do so, that is a nice side effect.
P.S.: The drive testing utilities on the Ultimate Boot CD page are probably the closest thing to a good answer we'll have here.
So, other than shooting your own foot ... how would you get out of jury duty?
Jonathan Hutchins [email protected] wrote: Sometimes, when someone asks how to do something, it's a good idea to ask them why they want to do that, and to discuss some of the possible implications of doing it. Yes, shooting yourself in the foot will probably get you out of jury duty. Yes, I could respect your choice of action and merely tell you how, but perhaps I could explore other alternatives instead.
My wife got out cause she was pregnant...
On 7/2/07, James Sissel [email protected] wrote:
So, other than shooting your own foot ... how would you get out of jury duty?
I think most of us would find that difficult to reproduce except in an odd and complex lab setting.
From: Jeremy Fowler Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2007 2:55 PM
My wife got out cause she was pregnant...
On 7/2/07, James Sissel <> wrote:
So, other than shooting your own foot ... how would you get out of jury duty?
On 7/1/07, Jeffrey McCright [email protected] wrote:
Ladies and Gentlemen, TAKE A HINT! This is why newbies don't look long to the KCLUG for support, and quite possibly one of the reasons why people don't give Linux a second look. I have several friends whom I have directed to the KCLUG and after posting one or two questions to the list, have given up on the list. I no longer point non-technical people to the list as they get frustrated and offended. There it is.
I don't think a person who can write this (emphasis mine) is a 'newbie'.
Can anyone recommend a program or method of stress testing hard drives? I
check memory/cpu with memtest86, but I would like some way to stress test a hard drive. Currently I dd urandom over it for a few days or DBAN it, but I'm looking for something more thought out. Preferably, a program that can run on a live system so I'd just attach the drive to be tested, and point the test at /dev/sdd or whatever dev it was on. Preserving data on the drive is (obviously) not a concern.
Testing modern hard drives is complicated by the fact that the onboard controller manages defects internally. When the drive writes a sector of data, it reads it back to verify that it can be done correctly. If it can't, it locates a spare sector and tries to write there instead. Once it finds a good spare sector, it records in its internal data structures that it has remapped the sector to the good location.
The upshot of all of this is that you have not one clue that there is a bad sector, because the drive lies about it. Any utility to test a HD needs to know how to tell the drive to stop lying, which may vary between manufacturers or even models for all I know. That's operating at a VERY low level, underneath what the device driver would be doing, so it's going to require kernel-mode hackery and either a special kernel like memtest, or a special driver module that can be loaded to provide that level of access to the drive. If that's even possible.
I've heard good things about SpinRite http://www.grc.com/spinrite.htm, but it's far from free as in beer, and is written in DOS to be booted and run from a floppy or CD. Maybe someone will write a free utility that provides all that functionality, even after Linux has loaded drivers to talk to the lying hard drives. And ponies.
Boy, am I glad that I didn't have time to inject myself in this thread before. :-) I can see where you are coming from Jeff, but I think Monty is dead on with his answer too. Fortunately, I've met Billy IRL and in IRC, so I would have a clue if he could follow a technical answer. I totally didn't get the idea of the 10 story drop test other than humor, but others were trying to mollify the paranoia of data failure from your average hard drive and to explain a bit of what the manufacturers do to test their own products. After understanding that, you may not want to go to the trouble of testing on your own. This is why backups are so important, because all hardware is failure prone and so is software.
That said, there are some interesting utilities in the System Rescue CD distro. It is a Live CD using Gentoo and a highly customized boot that allows you to boot to DBAN and Derik's Boot and Nuke among other tiny images. The standard Sysrescuecd boot takes you to a basic Linux with many disk tools at your service. I've used the distro to rescue a drive partition table that got messed up with a failed Linux install. YMMV.
There is a decent wiki at www.sysresccd.org with documentation. http://www.sysresccd.org/System-tools
Test-disk look to be one program you could use from Sysrescuecd. There are other LiveCDs that include this program and other system recovery tools, Knoppix, Gparted LiveCD, and even the Ultimate Boot CD. http://www.cgsecurity.org/wiki/TestDisk http://www.cgsecurity.org/wiki/SMART_Monitoring
Also check out Aida a powerful hardware enumeration/diagnostic/discovery tool, like Sandra.
On 7/2/07, Monty J. Harder <> wrote:
On 7/1/07, Jeffrey McCright <> wrote:
Ladies and Gentlemen, TAKE A HINT! This is why newbies don't look long to the KCLUG for support, and quite possibly one of the reasons why people don't give Linux a second look. I have several friends whom I have
directed
to the KCLUG and after posting one or two questions to the list, have
given
up on the list. I no longer point non-technical people to the list as they get frustrated and offended. There it is.
I don't think a person who can write this (emphasis mine) is a 'newbie'.
Can anyone recommend a program or method of stress testing hard
drives? I check memory/cpu with memtest86, but I would like some way to stress test a hard drive. Currently I dd urandom over it for a few days or DBAN it, but I'm looking for something more thought out. Preferably, a program that can run on a live system so I'd just attach the drive to be tested, and point the test at /dev/sdd or whatever dev it was on. Preserving data on the drive is (obviously) not a concern.
Testing modern hard drives is complicated by the fact that the onboard controller manages defects internally. When the drive writes a sector of data, it reads it back to verify that it can be done correctly. If it can't, it locates a spare sector and tries to write there instead. Once it finds a good spare sector, it records in its internal data structures that it has remapped the sector to the good location.
The upshot of all of this is that you have not one clue that there is a bad sector, because the drive lies about it. Any utility to test a HD needs to know how to tell the drive to stop lying, which may vary between manufacturers or even models for all I know. That's operating at a VERY low level, underneath what the device driver would be doing, so it's going to require kernel-mode hackery and either a special kernel like memtest, or a special driver module that can be loaded to provide that level of access to the drive. If that's even possible.
I've heard good things about SpinRite, but it's far from free as in beer, and is written in DOS to be booted and run from a floppy or CD. Maybe someone will write a free utility that provides all that functionality, even after Linux has loaded drivers to talk to the lying hard drives. And ponies.
On 7/2/07, Monty J. Harder [email protected] wrote:
On 7/1/07, Jeffrey McCright [email protected] wrote:
Can anyone recommend a program or method of stress testing hard drives? I check memory/cpu with memtest86, but I would like some way to stress test a hard drive. Currently I dd urandom over it for a few days or DBAN it, but I'm looking for something more thought out. Preferably, a program that can run on a live system so I'd just attach the drive to be tested, and point the test at /dev/sdd or whatever dev it was on. Preserving data on the drive is (obviously) not a concern.
On that suggested Ultimate Boot CD, the PowerMax tool for Maxtor drives (2.09?) will perform a repetitive 'Stress Test' on internal drives. If I remember right, it will perform a complete write/read test of every section of the drive for up to (I think) 30 times. IIRC, it (unofficially) works with any drive, but you'll have to check on it.
Testing modern hard drives is complicated by the fact that the onboard controller manages defects internally. When the drive writes a sector of data, it reads it back to verify that it can be done correctly. If it can't, it locates a spare sector and tries to write there instead. Once it finds a good spare sector, it records in its internal data structures that it has remapped the sector to the good location.
I saw some reasearch (January, Dec 06, ??) from Google and one of the Univ. of California schools on hard drive analysis. After testing several hundred thousand drives from a variety of mfg's, they both found that there was basically no way to tell what drive would fail when, or in what fashion. Google found that of the numerous (40?) SMART parameters each HD companies tracks, with only 5 was there any kind of statistical correspondance to failure. By using those 5, they were able to correctly predict upcoming failure in (get this) 40% of their drives, thus leaving the other ~60% to some unknown cause.
I've heard good things about SpinRite, but it's far from free as in beer,...
Spinrite is a fine program, which I'll vouch for (and paid for if for nothing else to support the fine product he puts out). GRC has been producing this for many, many years and as far back as I can remember it's always been head and shoulders above the competition. I always thought the program booted into soemthing other than DOS, but I could be wrong there.
Dave
Spinrite is a dos program. The boot media likely uses some sort of free dos clone.
On 7/5/07, David Spake [email protected] wrote:
On 7/2/07, Monty J. Harder [email protected] wrote:
On 7/1/07, Jeffrey McCright [email protected] wrote:
Can anyone recommend a program or method of stress testing hard drives? I check memory/cpu with memtest86, but I would like some way
to
stress test a hard drive. Currently I dd urandom over it for a few
days or
DBAN it, but I'm looking for something more thought out. Preferably, a program that can run on a live system so I'd just attach the drive to
be
tested, and point the test at /dev/sdd or whatever dev it was on. Preserving data on the drive is (obviously) not a concern.
On that suggested Ultimate Boot CD, the PowerMax tool for Maxtor drives (2.09?) will perform a repetitive 'Stress Test' on internal drives. If I remember right, it will perform a complete write/read test of every section of the drive for up to (I think) 30 times. IIRC, it (unofficially) works with any drive, but you'll have to check on it.
Testing modern hard drives is complicated by the fact that the onboard controller manages defects internally. When the drive writes a sector
of
data, it reads it back to verify that it can be done correctly. If it can't, it locates a spare sector and tries to write there instead. Once
it
finds a good spare sector, it records in its internal data structures
that
it has remapped the sector to the good location.
I saw some reasearch (January, Dec 06, ??) from Google and one of the Univ. of California schools on hard drive analysis. After testing several hundred thousand drives from a variety of mfg's, they both found that there was basically no way to tell what drive would fail when, or in what fashion. Google found that of the numerous (40?) SMART parameters each HD companies tracks, with only 5 was there any kind of statistical correspondance to failure. By using those 5, they were able to correctly predict upcoming failure in (get this) 40% of their drives, thus leaving the other ~60% to some unknown cause.
I've heard good things about SpinRite, but it's far from free as in
beer,...
Spinrite is a fine program, which I'll vouch for (and paid for if for nothing else to support the fine product he puts out). GRC has been producing this for many, many years and as far back as I can remember it's always been head and shoulders above the competition. I always thought the program booted into soemthing other than DOS, but I could be wrong there.
Dave _______________________________________________ Kclug mailing list [email protected] http://kclug.org/mailman/listinfo/kclug
Flames? Hmmm, let's see...
Ok, Jeffrey I know you may be proud of your A+ certification, but placing A+ after your name is only slightly less lame than someone showing off their MOUS credentials.
Hey, you asked for it!
However, Jeff, you do have a point.
On 7/1/07, Jeffrey McCright [email protected] wrote:
Let the Flames begin!
Jeffrey A. McCright, A+
Wow. Now thats a first. I guess I just never really saw that coming. After all these years, I have never had anyone offended by my signature block. But just for the record, the A+ in my signature block was a requirement of a previous employer. Until now, no one was offended by it, so I guess I just never really bothered to change it. Wow. But, Hey, thanks for playing...
And Please, have a great day!
Jeffrey A. McCright, A+ 816-210-3107 [email protected]
From: "Jeremy Fowler" [email protected] To: "Jeffrey McCright" [email protected] CC: [email protected], [email protected] Subject: Re: Stress Testing Hard Drives Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 15:03:33 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com ([66.249.92.172]) by bay0-mc3-f19.bay0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.2668); Thu, 5 Jul 2007 13:03:34 -0700 Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id k3so676200ugf for [email protected]; Thu, 05 Jul 2007 13:03:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.82.108.9 with SMTP id g9mr20889961buc.1183665813193; Thu, 05 Jul 2007 13:03:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.82.189.5 with HTTP; Thu, 5 Jul 2007 13:03:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Message-Info: 5ZHoJh3ZkQ2beHhjtR/Lqw+jGgHyYqvlcOX901YQIttX/7kYcd+iVW3Tpx/DmeMS DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta;
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Flames? Hmmm, let's see...
Ok, Jeffrey I know you may be proud of your A+ certification, but placing A+ after your name is only slightly less lame than someone showing off their MOUS credentials.
Hey, you asked for it!
However, Jeff, you do have a point.
On 7/1/07, Jeffrey McCright [email protected] wrote:
Let the Flames begin!
Jeffrey A. McCright, A+
_________________________________________________________________ http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=hmtextlinkjuly07
I was just joking around and in a playful mood at the time. I hope I didn't offend you, but you did start it by saying "Let the flames begin". If the A+ means that much to you, go ahead and keep it. I won't make fun anymore, promise! ;-)
You and everyone else have a safe and fun weekend. July 4th, part 2?
On 7/6/07, Jeffrey McCright [email protected] wrote:
Wow. Now thats a first. I guess I just never really saw that coming. After all these years, I have never had anyone offended by my signature block. But just for the record, the A+ in my signature block was a requirement of a previous employer. Until now, no one was offended by it, so I guess I just never really bothered to change it. Wow. But, Hey, thanks for playing...
And Please, have a great day!
Jeffrey A. McCright, A+ 816-210-3107 [email protected]
On 7/6/07, Jeremy Fowler [email protected] wrote:
I was just joking around and in a playful mood at the time. I hope I didn't offend you, but you did start it by saying "Let the flames begin". If the A+ means that much to you, go ahead and keep it. I won't make fun anymore, promise! ;-)
My blood type is A+... Does that count for anything?
In regard to the concept of drive degradation being "hidden" by controllers. It seems to be a needful evil for the current applied art and science of rotating magnetic media at these price points. Yes, I suspect we "could" make media, heads, positioning methods et all that would be "true" non contact under most practical conditions.
The game is a paraphrasing of an older tech rubric- Cheap- Fast- Stable=pick any 2.
So the SMART ancestral concept was actually devised as an end run around those rules. Setting a scoring metric for considering a "data element" as pass/fail is still a moving target. Set your metrics too conservative and a drive becomes so apparently crappy that you would consider it as unsafe to trust. Set the metrics too optimistic and you replicate the ZIP drive impact- cheap- comparably fast for a floppy replacement- but dangerously unstable at times. Some comments here invoked the Gibson drive tools. There is a Zip issue called Click of Death. Mr Gibson did some excellent research into the cause, prevention, and recovery from the issue That body of work gives some insight to how modern drives work and fail.
There's an element of Schrodinger's Cat indeterminate factors inherent in dimensions approaching or even exploiting quantum effects. Modern heads owe their ancestry of late more to a hall effect transistor than a magnetic coil. That allows flying head gaps to be larger for the same signal than older heads. Which paradoxically makes a head crash more devastating due to higher impact forces if from nothing else than SPEED! I could go on at length but It would be out of scope for the concept this thread is working out. Here's my topical constructive query .
In the form of a friendly challenge- Let's see who can share with our group the most useful Open Source usable from Linux tools to interrogate drive controllers as to true drive metrics.
Show us the code....
Oren
Hey, mine too. We can be blood buddies!! If we ever need a transfusion, we can call each other. My blood is clean, had it changed at 30,000 miles and everything.
_____
From: Monty J. Harder Sent: Friday, July 06, 2007 5:55 PM
My blood type is A+... Does that count for anything?
-
Billy Crook -
Brian Kelsay -
David Spake -
James Sissel -
Jeffrey McCright -
Jeremy Fowler -
Jim Herrmann -
Jonathan Hutchins -
Kelsay, Brian - Kansas City, MO -
Monty J. Harder -
Oren Beck -
William Harrington